Wiring 2 terminal winch motor through solenoid

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

I have a warn "works" 1700lb winch that uses a 2 terminal motor and in it's native application uses a big polarity reversing switch to switch +/- to each terminal to control in and out.
It doesn't use any solenoids or relays, the switch is about the size of half a tennis ball and acts straight onto the main power wires.

Is there a way to hook up a series of solenoids to this so that it can be wired to a small double momentary switch?

Joined: 08 Nov 2002 Location: sunshine coast

easiest way would be to use a winch control solonoid. Otherwise you would need 2 change over solonoids, as with a normal winch.

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:44 am

to do that kind of switching .... yes i would imagine so, how ever as your flipping polarity, you would need some sort of isolator arrangment to stop reverse current blowing your solenoids, could be tricky!

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

killalux wrote:

easiest way would be to use a winch control solonoid. Otherwise you would need 2 change over solonoids, as with a normal winch.

I mightn't have explained myself very well. This winch only has 2 terminals instead of 3.

To wind in need - to terminal A, + to terminal B
To wind out need + to terminal A, - to terminal B

I don't see how I can manage that with a normal winch solenoid pack?

cooki_monsta wrote:

to do that kind of switching .... yes i would imagine so, how ever as your flipping polarity, you would need some sort of isolator arrangment to stop reverse current blowing your solenoids, could be tricky!

Yeah, I can't even get close to working that bit out. #Crazy

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:12 am

cooki_monsta wrote:

your flipping polarity, you would need some sort of isolator arrangment to stop reverse current blowing your solenoids, could be tricky!

Like he said. It could be done with a relay and 4 solenoids.

Is is possible to get OR solenoids (3 terminal) that go open circuit with no power? Then you would only need 2 of them with a 3 position toggle switch.

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

v6hilux wrote:

Like he said. It could be done with a relay and 4 solenoids.

Any chance you can draw me a picture of this?

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:12 pm

Here it is. Someone correct it if it's wrong!

The thin lines are low current for the solenoid coils and the thick lines are the high current wires for the winch power.

The red boxes are the solenoids.

Don't forget to include an isolation switch and fuse for the F-R switch.

The F-R switch needs to be 3 position and have a centre OFF position.

Also some type of fuse or fusible link before the solenoids on the high current side.

Joined: 11 Jan 2004 Location: Adelaide

V6 Hilux's diagram looks like it should work, but I'd be a little wary that there's nothing to stop (for instance) F1 and R2 energising at the same time. Obviously, under normal operation the toggle switch covers that. But, if something fails and a ham fisted operator starts randomly applying 12V while troubleshooting, you could end up shorting the battery.

An extra layer of safety (but still not foolproof) would be to earth the solenoid coils through change-over relays, wired so that either F1 or R2 is earthed at any one time, but never both. Similarly with F2 and R1.

Perhaps it's over-kill - but Murphy is a bastard! cussing

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

v6hilux wrote:

Here it is. Someone correct it if it's wrong!
The thin lines are low current for the solenoid coils and the thick lines are the high current wires for the winch power.
The red boxes are the solenoids.
Don't forget to include an isolation switch and fuse for the F-R switch.
The F-R switch needs to be 3 position and have a centre OFF position.
Also some type of fuse or fusible link before the solenoids on the high current side.

Awesome. Thanks man.

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 2:37 pm

-Scott- wrote:

V6 Hilux's diagram looks like it should work, but I'd be a little wary that there's nothing to stop (for instance) F1 and R2 energising at the same time.

That's what the 3 position center off toggle and fusible are for. Yes the switch should be moved slowly from one direction to the oter with a pause in the center.

Extra protection could be the addition of another relay or switch next to the thick wire fusible link to be called "Operate motor" that would be a momentary switch depressed after the direction is chosen so the winch motor will not operate until it is pressed. I think it would be safer as it would isolate power to the motor while switching direction.

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:26 pm

i wouldnt bother, if your operating it, then there is no chance with a single momentary switch that your going to go in and out at the same time, this nonsence about having to do it slow is just rubbish, the de energise time of a relay coil is around 30us (micro s.) if you can flip fields that fast and manage to some how hold polarity on both sides for long enough then you deserve a new winch motor anyway Very Happy

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Location: NSW

v6hilux wrote:

Here it is. Someone correct it if it's wrong!

That's an electrical nightmare unless there is at least a mechanical interlock between contacts to prevent a short circuit.

I'd do it as follows using some changeover relays. I kept it basic and the control circuit and load circuit separate. I haven't included any additional isolators or circuit protection but this is the standard way of wiring motors to do what you want. I have done dozens of Water Monitor hydraulic pump motors on Water Carts this way and it's completely reliable, keeps things to a bare minimum and more importantly not going to cause a short if the control circuit fails in anyway.

Basically the motor will have a negative to each side of the motor when off. You're basically only changing the polarity on one side to reverse the polarity to the motor.

Add some fuses for protection into the circuit and also a single pole isolation switch on the main positive cable (or double pole and include the negative if you like) and it will be all good.

Other possibilities is to use that first switch in the control circuit as a momentary push button to act as a dead man switch. Another is to delete that switch and have the double throw center off switch as a momentary toggle so that it has to be held but automatically returns to center to act as a dead man, or have them both as momentary and that way accidental operation would be much harder to occur. Really just depends on how you want the set up to all be.

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Location: NSW

v6hilux wrote:

That's what the 3 position center off toggle and fusible are for. Yes the switch should be moved slowly from one direction to the oter with a pause in the center.

If a contact sticks or welds itself together, then a short will happen. Relying on a fuse to protect against something which can be eliminated through proper circuit design is just stupid.

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:37 am

r0ck_m0nkey wrote:

A 2 position (OR) contactor may be expensive. Thats why I used the 4 N/O contactors in my diagram.

Yes if a contact welds itself together, a fuseible link is the safeguard!

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Location: NSW

v6hilux wrote:

A 2 position (OR) contactor may be expensive. Thats why I used the 4 N/O contactors in my diagram.

Yes if a contact welds itself together, a fuseible link is the safeguard!

Considering you earlier typed this

v6hilux wrote:

Is is possible to get OR solenoids (3 terminal) that go open circuit with no power? Then you would only need 2 of them with a 3 position toggle switch.

It seems more of an excuse then anything.

A H Bridge design is just crap way of doing things.

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

r0ck_m0nkey wrote:

Basically the motor will have a negative to each side of the motor when off. You're basically only changing the polarity on one side to reverse the polarity to the motor.

Thanks man.
So using this idea, could I use one of the Titan style solenoids to switch between active terminals, and just have all earths connected at all times.
That'd be pretty tidy if it works.
Or am I misunderstanding your advice?

EDIT: Just thought about that a bit more and made myself laugh at how dumb my question was. Laughing

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:39 pm

ah wendle doing that if each motor terminal is constantly grounded, your going to short your motor Very Happy

as current will go to the motor then back out your ground link Wink

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Location: NSW

Wendle wrote:

Thanks man.
So using this idea, could I use one of the Titan style solenoids to switch between active terminals

Actually you can buy a Reversing Solenoid which internally is very much like a DPDT Relay which kind of works similar in a way cross between the two methods shown already. I haven't ever used them as the above method i shown has always been the way of choice due to using the same parts the particular mine sites kept on the shelf in the store as spares. I think they do get used in Marine Applications a bit on anchor winches and such, just look for one for a Permanent Magnet Motor (what you have).

I haven't played around with a Titan Solenoid before, but if it works the way i think it may, then it would be possible to use one. Just need a internal diagram to confirm my thoughts.

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

cooki_monsta wrote:

ah wendle doing that if each motor terminal is constantly grounded, your going to short your motor Very Happy

as current will go to the motor then back out your ground link Wink

Yeah, I know, I worked that out at exactly the same moment I hit "submit" Laughing

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

[quote="r0ck_m0nkey"]

Wendle wrote:

Actually you can buy a Reversing Solenoid which internally is very much like a DPDT Relay which kind of works similar in a way cross between the two methods shown already. I haven't ever used them as the above method i shown has always been the way of choice due to using the same parts the particular mine sites kept on the shelf in the store as spares. I think they do get used in Marine Applications a bit on anchor winches and such, just look for one for a Permanent Magnet Motor (what you have).

Where would be a good place to source such items?
Someone who will mail stuff out would be good seeing as I live in Canberra, the town with no industry Laughing

Cheers.

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Location: NSW

Wendle wrote:

Where would be a good place to source such items?
Someone who will mail stuff out would be good seeing as I live in Canberra, the town with no industry Laughing

Cheers.

Do this at your own peril Laughing

I would like one to confirm but by my accounts should work. Going off what i believe is inside a Titan style Solenoid comparing it to what it replaces with the normal 4 seperate SPST Solenoids.

Using a "titan" solenoid, connect the Main Positive wire to the Positive Terminal. Connect the Main Negative wire to the Armature (A) terminal. Then connect the F1 terminal to the Motor A terminal and the F2 terminal to the B Terminal.

Then just wire the control side as normal.

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:35 pm

that would half work, your on the right track, problem is, it wont switch your polarity to run the motor the other way

Joined: 09 Mar 2004 Location: NSW

cooki_monsta wrote:

that would half work, your on the right track, problem is, it wont switch your polarity to run the motor the other way

Show me an internal drawing of a Titan solenoid then to show otherwise? The only info i could find is that internally it is a DPDT Solenoid. Cutting a normal series wound control circuit down which uses four SPST Solenoids (i.e. normal Warn Control Circuit) to do the switching is showing me that in it's basic form a Titan would be nothing more then a four way switch. Which would reverse polarity when connected the right way.

Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Location: ACT

r0ck_m0nkey wrote:

cooki_monsta wrote:

that would half work, your on the right track, problem is, it wont switch your polarity to run the motor the other way

Show me an internal drawing of a Titan solenoid then to show otherwise? The only info i could find is that internally it is a DPDT Solenoid. Cutting a normal series wound control circuit down which uses four SPST Solenoids (i.e. normal Warn Control Circuit) to do the switching is showing me that in it's basic form a Titan would be nothing more then a four way switch. Which would reverse polarity when connected the right way.

I have pm'ed Berretta to let him know of this thread, I'd like to see what he thinks of this, seeing as it is his product.

Thanks heaps guys.