4wd licenses coming Minister to probe 4wd safety

Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Location: Lost in Melbourne.

Last Update: Thursday, January 29, 2004. 11:43am (AEDT)
Minister to probe four-wheel-drive safety

" Federal Roads Minister Senator Ian Campbell says he will meet with manufacturers and importers to discuss the best way to educate motorists about driving four-wheel-drive vehicles.

All four-wheel-drive vehicles sold in Australia are tested to ensure they meet safety standards but there are concerns that rollover testing is not conclusive.

Senator Campbell says the industry must ensure consumers get detailed safety information when they buy a vehicle.

"Here's the challenge, what do we do to better advise people about the characteristics of some of these vehicles that do require more care," he said.

"I mean clearly there are things that you can do when your driving a four-wheel, things you should do when you're driving a four-wheel-drive that you may not have to do in a passenger car."

The Federal Government will also talk to the states and territories about the possibility of introducing a special licence for motorists who drive large four-wheel-drive vehicles.
Senator Ian Campbell says driving some four-wheel-drive vehicles is more difficult than driving a sedan.

"Some of the big four-wheel-drives they are more akin to driving a small truck than they are to driving a passenger car, so they're the sort of options you could look at," he said.

"But I think driver education and consumer information at the point of sale are things we can work on immediately with the cooperation of the states."

http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/mgraph/mgraph11/index.cfm

Joined: 08 Nov 2002 Location: Back of Greenbank, QLD

I personally would love it if you had to take a "4wd" License test. It would stop the unskilled being able to drive them and ruining the reputation for the rest of us.

Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Location: Lost in Melbourne.

Ferwoaza wrote:

I personally would love it if you had to take a "4wd" License test. It would stop the unskilled being able to drive them and ruining the reputation for the rest of us.

But how many people in reality could be bothered? Spending more $100's on that for what?

Then cause of people not being able to/wanting to do it, there would be less sales of 4wds, prices go up for the ones that are around now, less models would be brought out as there would be minimal demand...

I agree to a point, but I think its a backwards move...

Joined: 19 Dec 2002 Location: Sydney

if they do bring it in, why would the used 4by prices go up? they would more than likely go down because of the larger than usual supply, all the second hand ones will be sitting there not being sold, this will drop prices,

Shawn

Joined: 21 Oct 2002 Location: London

I don't think it will happen there will be too much pressure from the big car companies. The 4x4's make a big part of new car sales. This will drop as the soccer mums won't be buying.

How are they going to class a 4x4 - WRX or landcruiser ???

Chris.

Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Location: Lost in Melbourne.

cbr wrote:

How are they going to class a 4x4 - WRX or landcruiser ???

To me that depends on how much $ there is to be made.

At say $1000 per car for driver training (gov Greed included), and 'fees', there is heaps to be made here for Canberra.. Thats a lot of free trips for the fat greedy pricks.

it will be same as the proposed AGAIN levy...

I think it will happen...

Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Location: Brisbane, Australia

Of course drivers should be educated about 4x4 vehicles, trucks & buses too, many get their licence in a Laser and assume evrything else has the same braking/handling capabilities.

Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Location: soz

If it was free it would be ok after all you need a licence for a bike truck tractor plane etc, it would get rid of some of the retards that should take public transport or drive something that they can handle like kia or similar but unfortunately little johnny will slug you after all he'll need more $$ for the up and coming son of starwars project or something similarly as useless.

Joined: 11 Dec 2002 Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

It seems a reasonable idea to get people to have an understanding of different vehicles, but it shouldn't be limited to '4x4's'. We get our license in a laser or other small vehicle (Rainbow Warrior), and cant drive anything else. There is a big difference between a small car and a commodore, let alone a patrol / cruiser / etc. A standard license allows the operation of a vehicle with a GVM of up to 4 tonne?? (or something like that, i know what I mean).

And, if we are required to get a different license, we should be allowed more modifications, eg suspension lifts, tyres etc.

Joined: 12 Dec 2002 Location: Wangaratta

Heath28 wrote:

It seems a reasonable idea to get people to have an understanding of different vehicles, but it shouldn't be limited to '4x4's'. We get our license in a laser or other small vehicle (Rainbow Warrior), and cant drive anything else. There is a big difference between a small car and a commodore, let alone a patrol / cruiser / etc. A standard license allows the operation of a vehicle with a GVM of up to 4 tonne?? (or something like that, i know what I mean).

And, if we are required to get a different license, we should be allowed more modifications, eg suspension lifts, tyres etc.

Are you kidding .. we are talking about politics here ... we would be allowed fewer mods, need a bullbar licence (kinda like a 007 "licence to kill" sorta setup) as well as a Mud Terrain permit as they dont handle as well as all terrains ..
They should also stop the import of cheap crappy tyres that offer poor road adhesion wet or dry and also make you do a quick physical and mental test before you drive each time ... as stoopid people with licence's in a Hummer, falcon, camry or daewoo Matiz are the most dangerous of all ...

I think the idea sucks ... make it harder to get your licence this "once around the block without crashing" and answer a few simple questions and here's your ticket is bull .. I can fail this test any number of times and still get my ticket that says I am allowed to drive .. It does not mean that I can drive. How many drivers know defensive driving techniques ?? 5% if your lucky.

How about the fact I can get my licence at 18 .. and never have to do anything other than keep on paying the fee every 10 years until I die of old age to keep it !!

Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Location: Gympie

I personally think it is a good idea would stop giving everyone a bad reputation. But you would then have to look at the costs side of things, I definately wouldn't be for it if it is going to cost a fortune to go and do

Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Location: Melbourne

i think introducing a fee or licence for vehicles actually used off road is a good idea. It will keep the idiots, who are only now in the sport because it is cool, away.

They will not pay the money, instead sell their junk and take up skateboarding or whatever.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:12 am

Licenced to drive a "car"...
Licenced to drive a "Bike"..
Licenced to drive a "forklift"
Licenced to drive a "heavy articulated vehicle"

spose its just another ticket I'd HAVE to get.......

it wont save a single life and the roads will still be shyte
and 4x4's will still have a bad reputation just like the truckies have !!

So whats it really for ........ just more revenue for the Govt

Wait till ya gotta have a licence for a "romantic interlude".... that'll kill one night stands !!

Joined: 11 Dec 2002 Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

love_mud wrote:

Are you kidding .. we are talking about politics here ... we would be allowed fewer mods, need a bullbar licence (kinda like a 007 "licence to kill" sorta setup) as well as a Mud Terrain permit as they dont handle as well as all terrains ..

Hey, never for a second thought I was saying something that would be done, but a compromise would be nice. And we can all dream. If we have to prove we can drive the ‘bigger’ vehicles, it should be a car that is higher and acts differently (better or otherwise) then any other car on the market.

love_mud wrote:

I think the idea sucks ... make it harder to get your licence this "once around the block without crashing" and answer a few simple questions and here's your ticket is bull .. I can fail this test any number of times and still get my ticket that says I am allowed to drive .. It does not mean that I can drive. How many drivers know defensive driving techniques ?? 5% if your lucky.

Agree fully. The licensing requirements are shit. There are 17-18 years old who think that cause they have a license they know how to drive – Bull***t.

love_mud wrote:

How about the fact I can get my licence at 18 .. and never have to do anything other than keep on paying the fee every 10 years until I die of old age to keep it !!

Again – Agree fully. 70 – 80 year old’s who got their license 60 years ago do not know the rules. Or how to use the new road devices – roundabouts for example.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:28 am

The solution is to licence people according to their abilities, not their wealth.

I'd prefer to see a "power to weight ratio" licence....

I'd also MAKE people attend driver training courses in order to obtain a higher power to weight licence

people that "loose" their licence should start allover again... IE: get done for Drink Driving ya Dodge Viper and you get a licence to drive a beep beep Barina when you are eligable to have a licence again !!.... that licence catogory should stick for 12 months !

I'd also perfer that the driver be the "insured".... NOT the vehicle, reason for this is that its the driver that has the accident not the car.... not one of you vehicles has ever had an accident with out a driver !!

That may sound tough..... but its a lot tougher for the familly of the person you just killed because you couldnt "handle" the power of that WRX !

Joined: 02 Jan 2003 Location: Brisbane

This is beauracratic BS at it's best Rolling Eyes

I'm all for driver education but not scaring people away from 4wd's.

Less 4by's (even soccer mums) means less aftermarket support and the remaining 4wd community becoming even more of a minority (easily victimised) Confused

How about a license for high powered cars, driving in the rain, driving with the stereo up loud, peak hour traffic, driving on NSW roads The Finger

or anything else with an inherent small risk.

Joined: 06 Oct 2003 Location: Gympie

V8Patrol wrote:

I'd also perfer that the driver be the "insured".... NOT the vehicle, reason for this is that its the driver that has the accident not the car.... not one of you vehicles has ever had an accident with out a driver !!

I highly agree with this idea. They should just take the 3rd party insurance out of rego and it would just become law - no "person" insurance no drive simple as that.

Joined: 15 Nov 2002 Location: Driving my GU in Melbourne

and so once again the decision is that something is dangerous well lets just ban it. Not lets educate the users about the dangers and how to deal with them and let them make the decision themselves. The cars are not dangerous or else they would not be sold they are dangerous when the person in control doesn't know what they are doing. The same can be said for any of these rice rockets or Monaros or Camrys or Geminis with the crappy diesel blowing smoke everywhere or the bus or running with scissors etc.

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:11 pm

I've just copied this over from the string for the story in the Bulletin....probably should have been in this string

------------

.....quoting something I have already said on the club site....

<cut>.....media and public perception is what is at stake here.
Deaths are occurring because people *don't* understand that a 4WD handles differently...... I know from first hand experience that stepping out of a 2wd into one can be a big change.....I nearly found out the hard way. I wish that at the time, Id had someone to tell me.
(add: I nearly managed to kill myself)
Instead of fighting back, its the opportunity to be proactive and offer a solution instead of just an argument.
An open day perhaps....free......organised through the association.....each club offering vehicle specific advice....all volunteer, all highly promoted......cant do any harm and a bunch of us "average" people in the public eye doing something positive to help out, can go a long way to clear up the red-neck image.
<cut>
Pick a spot - Oran Park perhaps - make a huge day of it. Don't use it to promote club membership per se, use it to show the public that there is assistance at hand and as a fraternity we do care about what happened to that poor family. We too are average Joes with families.
It was *not* knowing about their vehicle that killed them -not their egos or insecurities as expressed in that article.
I think if we become the educators - we stop becoming the boogie man. <cut>

Joined: 26 Jun 2003

bogged wrote:

cbr wrote:

How are they going to class a 4x4 - WRX or landcruiser ???

I think it will happen...

It's all talk so the one man pedestrian council Rolling Eyes

can recieve some more publicity. 4WD roll overs/reverse overs, etc. contribute very little to the stats. For instance that Cruiser that rolled a few weeks ago near Wagga, as tragic as it was happened to be on the wrong side of the road when it was finishing overtaking a truck... eventually they will just make it harder to obtain licences in the first place and those that slaughter others by driving dangerously recieve tougher sentences.

My MQ on 35's etc. handles alot better than the stanza that i drive with slick tyres on the front... and alot more of the latter cause accidents( bald tyres, not dattos Very Happy

)... There are alot of other dangerous matters that need to be attended on vehicles first. It's just alot of wind, cause the govn knows the backlash it would recieve from various intrest groups if it was introduced. Remember carmakers contribute to political parties... their not going to see their market reduced overnight with the introduction of a "special licence".

Joined: 15 Feb 2003 Location: ACT

What I think they should do is reduce the speed limit to 40kph EVERYWHERE! That'll stop rollovers Very Happy

Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Location: Lost in Melbourne.

ozy1 wrote:

if they do bring it in, why would the used 4by prices go up?

As I see it there will be less of them in years to come...
If they sold say 10,000 a year now all up (its more than that), and 4wd licenses became mandatory, it would drop to 3000... less on the road etc..

YMMV

Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Location: Lost in Melbourne.

V8Patrol wrote:

So whats it really for ........ just more revenue for the Govt

At least someone else can see thru the horseshit! Its all about $$ and appearing to do something, keeps Scruby and his 10 voter mates happy.

mj wrote:

Less 4by's (even soccer mums) means less aftermarket support and the remaining 4wd community becoming even more of a minority (easily victimised) Confused

Very true!!

MQ080 wrote:

1) It's all talk so the one man pedestrian council Rolling Eyes

can recieve some more publicity.
2)eventually they will just make it harder to obtain licences in the first place
3) and those that slaughter others by driving dangerously recieve tougher sentences.

1) Yup
2) Im in favor of this but if it was going to happen wouldnt they have done this 15 years ago? That will never happen.
3) that will never happen, although it should.. kill someone with a car get 18 mths ? WTF is up with that!

Joined: 26 Jun 2003

I don't know what it's like in your neck of the woods Bogged, but up here there is alot more charges associated with motor vehicles than 15years ago. Back then it would have been quite difficult to charge someone with manslughter after they ran someone over, however today there is "blah blah blah occassioning actual bodily blah", etc.

In time I have no doubt that licences will become harder to get... cause there is votes and $$$ in it for the government. Think about it, all those that would oppose this are either 16 or younger... yeah like the govn is worried about their vote at that stage and secondly in european countries it costs easily thousands to meet the requirments because of the training and taxes in place to ensure those are serious about safety and keeping their licences...

Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Location: Deception Bay-Nth Brisbane

Some say it will keep the idiots away because they won't pay for the privilage.
But what about your average family man who can just afford to do things safely now?

How about a liscence for all the 18 yr olds who drive twin turbo import cars and the like ? They get a liscence and their car in the same day,have 300 kws of power under their foot,and their less of a danger than 4wds?
I think not.
This is government revenue raising.

I agree totally that people should do a 4wd course to cover the basics in the same way a defensive driving course covers safety for cars.

Joined: 27 Nov 2002 Location: Lost in Melbourne.

KRI55 wrote:

But what about your average family man who can just afford to do things safely now?

they shouldnt be on the road if they arent safe.. yes?

Joined: 15 Nov 2002 Location: Driving my GU in Melbourne

The problem is that 4wds drive differently than a normal car. Most people buy the 4wd drive it around town never getting above 80 ks fine. However also in that time they are getting lulled into a false sense of security. "Hmmm what do they mean 4wds are different to cars, it has a nice ride, lots of visibility, handles fine" they then go on the annuals holidays and do an 8 hour stint at high speeds on dodgy roads and suddenly before you can say Venue raising they put a wheel into the dirt, over correct and hey presto chango 1 upside down 4wd and 1 more Current Affair hard hitting report

Joined: 12 Dec 2002 Location: Wangaratta

grimbo wrote:

The problem is that 4wds drive differently than a normal car. Most people buy the 4wd drive it around town never getting above 80 ks fine. However also in that time they are getting lulled into a false sense of security. "Hmmm what do they mean 4wds are different to cars, it has a nice ride, lots of visibility, handles fine" they then go on the annuals holidays and do an 8 hour stint at high speeds on dodgy roads and suddenly before you can say Venue raising they put a wheel into the dirt, over correct and hey presto chango 1 upside down 4wd and 1 more Current Affair hard hitting report

Late last year I went to tassie .. had a brand new (2000 or so Kms) Nissan pulsar rental thrash .. I guess it is because I am so used to driving big uggly lumps .. I got a wheel in the dirt in the pulsar at speed (about 125 or so under power pulling out of a corner, drifted a bit wide) .. I actually did almost poo my pants .. thought I was a gonner, front wheel drive no more power and very little steering I was scared .. I have done the same thing in the GU hundreds of times .. never been any concern .. it barely moves off it's line .. dunno if I am used to it or what .. I really do prefer to drive 4wds ... I fond them far more predictable (when driven like a big heavy vehicle) ...

I think that perhaps some "extra" kind of licence may be a good idea (like manual and Auto licences) .. Actually I think that it may be a good idea just to make it tougher testing procedure to get your licence in general ...

BTW dosent victoria still have a Kw to Kg rule for P platers ???

Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Location: Brisbane, Australia

Squik wrote:

I've just copied this over from the string for the story in the Bulletin....probably should have been in this string

------------

.....quoting something I have already said on the club site....

<cut>.....media and public perception is what is at stake here.
Deaths are occurring because people *don't* understand that a 4WD handles differently...... I know from first hand experience that stepping out of a 2wd into one can be a big change.....I nearly found out the hard way. I wish that at the time, Id had someone to tell me.
(add: I nearly managed to kill myself)

Funny, learning to drive in a Valiant wagon, since I've been driving 4x4's & Vans so long I no longer understand 2WD, I hated drivng my brothers late model Commodore.

Joined: 14 Nov 2003 Location: Roma Q

I wonder when they'll do something about caravans being towed by people who havent got a clue - no special license and no idea. That is what scares me, not 4x4s