Tough Dog Tuff Truck Challenge 2008 - Latest Updates

Joined: 09 Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne

Dissapointing to see Glen Dobbin didnt make the cut... Confused

Who was selling vote's for charity? TTC organisers or someone else?

Joined: 20 Oct 2002

the gun wrote:

Anybody got the final vote tally??? I carnt imagine that the "charity" votes would have had any effect on which competitors didnt make the final cut.

Sam

we were sitting pretty at 9th until the final count and have come in 30th.
what do u think, no effect?[/quote]

How many votes did you have? So did you buy any charity votes??

Sam

Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Location: Canobolas 4wd Club Orange NSW

It is a good cause yes. But....

In answer to your question, no we didn't buy any votes. We decided to leave it to our family, club members, work colleagues and friends to vote for us. I bought some magazines, yes and voted for PK and Glenn, but I also voted for other nominees too, as there is a great field this year.

It seems that the votes are a bit of secret to the general public, so I will leave this one up Glenn.

Stella

Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Location: Sydney

RUFF wrote:

Please do not take this the wrong way. I think the event is great. I just think the voting system sucks.

Tony, having read all of your comments, I haven't taken it any other way. You've made many positive comments in the past on TTC and comments on this thread are probably one of the first not so positive comments that I've seen from you. However, I'm not seeing sense in what you're saying about how things work with the other events on how they may take entrants. If an event only takes X amount of entrants and for most events it is first in, first taken or similar, this isn't necessarily fair is it?? At least TTC gives the opportunity to all propsective entrants to compete, this is a fundamental difference between TTC and the other comps. From there comes about one of the reasons of drawing interest to TTC. You may argue the finer points of the actual voting system but the basic system works well for TTC IMO.

You can make what you want of this information but the total number of voting slips received for TTC08 was about 1350. From that, the charitable voting slips received was about 270 or 20% of the total vote, leaving 1080 or 80% that would have come from the general populos. I'll leave it to everybody to draw their own conclusion as to whether and/or how much the charitable votes contributed to the overall outcome of the make up of the field. Just for general interest sake, there was a small number of complaints on the charitable vote aspect, however some of those names attached to the complaints did also receive votes via the system and may have come out ahead of what they expected.

Sam K, I appreciate that you provided a prospective solution. The logistics behind your suggestion are pretty full on. At what time prior to the event would you hold the "shoot out"??

Sam O, are you involved in 4WD event management or something lol. You've pointed out many things that were on my mind.

Pagie

Joined: 22 Oct 2002 Location: brisbane

Podge wrote:

RUFF wrote:

Please do not take this the wrong way. I think the event is great. I just think the voting system sucks.

Tony, having read all of your comments, I haven't taken it any other way. You've made many positive comments in the past on TTC and comments on this thread are probably one of the first not so positive comments that I've seen from you. However, I'm not seeing sense in what you're saying about how things work with the other events on how they may take entrants. If an event only takes X amount of entrants and for most events it is first in, first taken or similar, this isn't necessarily fair is it?? At least TTC gives the opportunity to all propsective entrants to compete, this is a fundamental difference between TTC and the other comps. From there comes about one of the reasons of drawing interest to TTC. You may argue the finer points of the actual voting system but the basic system works well for TTC IMO.

You can make what you want of this information but the total number of voting slips received for TTC08 was about 1350. From that, the charitable voting slips received was about 270 or 20% of the total vote, leaving 1080 or 80% that would have come from the general populos. I'll leave it to everybody to draw their own conclusion as to whether and/or how much the charitable votes contributed to the overall outcome of the make up of the field. Just for general interest sake, there was a small number of complaints on the charitable vote aspect, however some of those names attached to the complaints did also receive votes via the system and may have come out ahead of what they expected.

Sam K, I appreciate that you provided a prospective solution. The logistics behind your suggestion are pretty full on. At what time prior to the event would you hold the "shoot out"??

Sam O, are you involved in 4WD event management or something lol. You've pointed out many things that were on my mind.

Pagie

As a competitor of more events than i care to remember, i totally agree with the need for a "qualifying" comp, a lot of vehicles AND teams need the practice/testing or at least a shakedown to blow out the cobwebs. People really want to see the best teams in the country, not the ones with the largest individual club support. ( i would rather watch Glens truck over ours - we are boring!!).

ALSO while i am letting off steam!!! there is nothing more frustrating than being ready at your first course of the day, and sitting there BY YOURSELF while you wait for the 5 cars in front of you for 1 1/2 hours, but cant run cus they are first but are fixing there stuff!!! then someone says OH you may as well run!!!!aaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!! DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN ----- PLEASE!!! if you are ready to run then GO! most of the competitors are great guys and never have a problem running out of order if some trucks aren't ready.

And send the marshals and recovery for the night stage off at 4.30pm so that they are ready to go at 7pm at the latest!!!! DO NOT -- send then off at the same time as the competitors and then make us sit and wait till 9.30pm before the first car is allowed to run - that in BS!!!! maybe thats why we ALWAYS finish at after 1am..... (THIS HAPPENS EVERY YEAR). if you are going to do this then tell us to come line up at 9pm!! at least then we can have dinner and a nap (or watch the idiot in the mud!!)

but apart from that I CAN'T WAIT!!!

Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Location: western shitney

tom_286 wrote:

Dissapointing to see Glen Dobbin didnt make the cut... Confused

why? i think its good that its not the same trucks each year.

Joined: 03 Dec 2006 Location: orange

How many votes did you have? So did you buy any charity votes??

Sam[/quote]

we had 131 votes at the time the votes became secret. No we didnt buy any votes, I spoke with my driver Pete, and we decided we wouldnt buy any as it's not in the "sprit of the competion". The west end boys were told by you know who that if a team didnt have alest 250 votes they wouldnt get a start. He had 8000 votes to sell and he sold as many as he could any way he could. Do the sums, he had more than 250 mags(3750votes). So it came down to one bloke selling entres to tuff truck. As for only 20% of the votes B---s--t.

Glenn
Redback Mountaineers

Joined: 20 Oct 2002

the gun wrote:

Strange Rover wrote:

How many votes did you have? So did you buy any charity votes??

Sam

we had 131 votes at the time the votes became secret. No we didnt buy any votes, I spoke with my driver Pete, and we decided we wouldnt buy any as it's not in the "sprit of the competion". The west end boys were told by you know who that if a team didnt have alest 250 votes they wouldnt get a start. He had 8000 votes to sell and he sold as many as he could any way he could. Do the sums, he had more than 250 mags(3750votes). So it came down to one bloke selling entres to tuff truck. As for only 20% of the votes B---s--t.

Glenn
Redback Mountaineers

Given that you guys didnt buy charity votes and came 30th then it would seem to me that the charity votes didnt effect the outcome of who didnt make the cut. If it turned out that the guys who didnt make the cut bought charity votes so that you had to buy votes to get a start then it would have really effected things. The charity votes probably just changed the starting order at best.

I think the issue was his sales pitch saying that if you dont buy my votes then you wont get in - doesent look like it ended up like this though.

Sam

Joined: 22 Oct 2002 Location: brisbane

Strange Rover wrote:

the gun wrote:

Strange Rover wrote:

How many votes did you have? So did you buy any charity votes??

Sam

we had 131 votes at the time the votes became secret. No we didnt buy any votes, I spoke with my driver Pete, and we decided we wouldnt buy any as it's not in the "sprit of the competion". The west end boys were told by you know who that if a team didnt have alest 250 votes they wouldnt get a start. He had 8000 votes to sell and he sold as many as he could any way he could. Do the sums, he had more than 250 mags(3750votes). So it came down to one bloke selling entres to tuff truck. As for only 20% of the votes B---s--t.

Glenn
Redback Mountaineers

Given that you guys didnt buy charity votes and came 30th then it would seem to me that the charity votes didnt effect the outcome of who didnt make the cut. If it turned out that the guys who didnt make the cut bought charity votes so that you had to buy votes to get a start then it would have really effected things. The charity votes probably just changed the starting order at best.

I think the issue was his sales pitch saying that if you dont buy my votes then you wont get in - doesent look like it ended up like this though.

Sam

we only had 5 votes (1 person ,1 x 2nd place vote) before we realised that $100 would ensure us a drive no matter what!! so the last 2 years entry has been cheaper but it now costs you about the same in total!!!

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:24 am

Sam i disagree with you a bit on the voting system

sure it comes down to whoever buys the most votes gets in but when Tuff Truck are advertising it as the public vote in the tuffest 40 trucks then it sounds a little stupid really...

i personally would be embarassed to buy as many votes for myself to get in as some people have..i remember at the start of voting/nominations opening when looking at the entrants most only had 3, 5 or 9 votes say and there was a couple (might have been one) on something like 300 votes...that is real public voting right there Rolling Eyes

sure Glen or Sam could have bought themselves in but why should they..it is a public voting system after all, not personal..

taken from Tuff Truck website...

After a nomination has been accepted, details will be up in lights (well, on our website anyway). Now it is time to convince mates and work colleagues to vote for your nomination to ensure that you make the final cut - we only allow 40 vehicles to compete at TTC08, so make sure you have enough votes to make the final 40.

maybe that should read.." so now its time to buy up as many mags as you possibly can and spend another few hundred dollars on making sure you have enough votes to get in and forget about spending the last money you have on mods for your car"

so why not follow what you advertise...get the nominating teams to sell themselves to the general public, workmates etc etc and try to make them vote for you..what better way to promote the event/sport than to get out in your car and take it to places to gain interest..park it at some 4wd shops asking people to vote you in blah blah blah...sure it is more work for them but it will bring to the top the teams who make the effort to sell themselves to the public and in return the people who go to Tuff Truck will be watching the teams they voted in because they wanted them there

make it 1 vote per person, then it becomes a true public voting system

either way i am going, even if it is purely just to see Petes new vehicle and watch him win it.. Very Happy

dave

Joined: 03 Dec 2006 Location: orange

I guess part of what got up my nose was not only 'votes for sale',but the way which the votes were being sold, "buy some or u wont get a start".

Glenn

Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Location: Sydney

Some of you might know me as the “Fat Controller with Glass” or the Competition Manager for 2005, 2006 Tuff Truck and Stage Manager 2007. This year I am competing and we are entry 40(but only by 3 votes) , we did the buy magazines from newsagencies however we could only buy a couple as our local newsagencies only stocks two 4X4 Australia mags and no Dirt Comp at all.

In 2006,2007 I counted the votes which really only decided the running order as there were only just enough trucks to fill the numbers and we normally only got about 300 voting slips. When I heard through the grape vine last Friday that there were around 1200 voting slips I felt very sorry for Pagie. It is good to see that there are more people this year that have decided to stop sitting on the fence and give their truck (and navi) a run and see how it performs under pressure.

Q: why should there be voting?
A: This is a public event were anyone from the public can enter and in return why should we not include the public on who they want to watch. If we let competitors choose who to compete against it would turn into petty cat fights and who is getting along who at the moment.

Voting System:

Online – possible, we could do IP blocking so it only allows you to vote once a day. But anyone that knows internet could get a dial up internet connection a which assigns you a new IP address 90% of the time when you connect. This would allow the votes to be manipulated. Why not have people register. (well I have four outerlimits ID all because I forget passwords and which email address is what and when I first registered many years ago I never got the confirmation email address and so on, so it can also be manipulated. And which has also mentioned not everyone has internet access.

1900 and 19 SMS numbers – the easiest system to manipulate it all comes down to money. Go and buy a couple of prepaid sim cards and then each day SMS or call spend 55 cents on voting for yourself swap sim cards over. (also the setup cost are huge. From when I investigated it was around $5000.)

Magazine – well you have to buy them from a shop it is possible to manipulate you could buy them in bulk and then sell off votes. (might be for a good cause but this is just a smoke screen to manipulate votes and we did not do it, I thought about it.)

Shoot Out prior to the event – how early do you have it. 3 months before(it was Christmas time and very unfamily oriented); 4 – 6 months(for NSW we have willowglen, Nissan trial, woodpecker to busy getting ready for these comps to worry about another event. We had not even nominated to run yet.); 2 months (we still had an engine block sitting on a garage floor.).

There is about 13 new teams that have not competed in a previous tuff truck. That is awesome and those people deserve a pat on the back. I say bring it on. May the best person still be standing at the end of the weekend let alone be standing on the podium.

Lets stop the whinging and moaning and just get on with the sport if you think you can run it better come sit in with us and join the team in making decisions trust me we don’t bite but we just don’t want people saying “I don’t like this” or “I hate this do it differently” be proactive and maybe do some research if your serious about changing the world we live in because we spend 100s hours researching and trying to fine tune things, but as they say you cant please everyone.

Seeya James Martin
(don’t pick on me spell I’m not a engrish teacher)
Go team CAP51Z

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:52 am

a shootout earlier would rule out atleast 3 teams that are in the top 40.
as they arent going etc.

its all done now so time for us in newy to get her done!

Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Location: Sydney

the gun wrote:

and we decided we wouldnt buy any as it's not in the "sprit of the competition".

Glenn
Redback Mountaineers

bingo!

PKiel wrote:

It is a good cause yes. But....

Stella

I agree. Many people donate to many charities in different ways, we didn’t buy votes, not because we don’t believe in the charity, but because we don’t believe in the way it was promoted.

These two issues are what I find wrong with the situation.

Don’t get me wrong I cut out a coupon and mailed it. Even bought multiple copies of magazines in 2006 when we took the jeep in. but this is taking it one step further and it smelt bad.

j-top paj wrote:

why? i think its good that its not the same trucks each year.

A lot of spectators will be upset with this, many come to this one 4wd event in the calendar and they want to see the big ticket, well known trucks, they see on the dvds.

I dont think there is a core problem with the voting system, it seems to have worked and every have been happy the last few years but the situation re selling votes should have been discouraged.

Joined: 24 Oct 2002

Anyway enough shit talk. Glenn and I have only ourselves to blame for not getting in. Was good to see some of the other competitiors views on the voting system wether the organisers of TTC take any notice or not is upto them.
Goodluck to all the competitors that did get in and hope you all have a good weekend and you trucks hold together.

SAM

Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Location: Canobolas 4wd Club Orange NSW

You are still taking your vehicle though???? The 4 of you are reserves, so we will get to see you all in action, as aways someone will have problems an will not be able to compete.

I have a lot of respect for everyone involved, competitors and organisers, you are all great people.

So....... Lets get down and dirty and get ready for a Bloody Great Tuff Truck 2008.....

Stella

Joined: 24 Oct 2002

PKiel wrote:

You are still taking your vehicle though???? The 4 of you are reserves, so we will get to see you all in action, as aways someone will have problems an will not be able to compete.

I have a lot of respect for everyone involved, competitors and organisers, you are all great people.

So....... Lets get down and dirty and get ready for a Bloody Great Tuff Truck 2008.....

Stella

Unless we know for sure that we will be competing then No we won't be up there.

SAM

Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: Sydney

OVERKILL ENG wrote:

Anyway enough shit talk. Glenn and I have only ourselves to blame for not getting in. Was good to see some of the other competitiors views on the voting system wether the organisers of TTC take any notice or not is upto them.
Goodluck to all the competitors that did get in and hope you all have a good weekend and you trucks hold together.

SAM

Quote:

Unless we know for sure that we will be competing then No we won't be up there.

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Location: Central Coast NSW

RUFF wrote:

Nev wrote:

I don't know of any other comps that run this way.

I beleive Top Truck in the US is run this way. But im fairly sure voting is from Subscribers only and they can only vote once each.

. Yeh I am pretty sure Top Truck is run that way! Seems to work for them but hey, in the end some people just ain't lucky on the day and don't get in! Same as a lot won't be lucky on the day and they will break their trucks! You take it as it comes I suppose! I was hopeing to hv my truck running in it this year but somehow I knew (my laziness) it wouldn't be ready! Goodluck to all that got in though!

Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Location: western shitney

prontozuk wrote:

Some of you might know me as the “Fat Controller with Glass”

first i have heard of it Laughing

il have to call you that next time i see you Laughing

i gotta think of a better name for peter hut now

Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Location: Canobolas 4wd Club Orange NSW

Unless we know for sure that we will be competing then No we won't be up there.

SAM

Thats a shame but understandable

Stella

Joined: 22 Jan 2003 Location: brisbane

It almost seems that they may as well auction off the 40 places.....if you want to run first you pay for it. The public then can donate some cash towards their favorite competitor's placing.

hmmm....an idea. if the TTO8 website had an account in which voters could donate to a competitor via net banking. Then all you would have to do is say

i want to donate $5 to vehicle number 30....donate the funds...receive a receipt for it.

Theres a record of the transaction, it can be made available for everyone to look at if you have a problem with your placing of your favorite competitors placing.

You'd know which sponcer voted for who and how much they paid for it, maybe this is a regular updated thing on the TT08 website so those near the cut off have to start begging for funds.

Perhaps people donating over X amount of cash get stuff back, ie merchandise.

theres something in this i reckon

Joined: 20 Oct 2002 Location: Greenbank

The voting system would be fine if it were just the general public voting. Or even club members. But im betting the majority of the votes even outside of this charity scam(the more people i have spoken to today the more it sounds like a someone was trying to scam a lot of competitors into buying these votes) came directly from competitors or their sponsors. So its really nothing more than the competitors deciding who gets in.

How to make the voting process as fair as it should be? I dont know im sorry. Its not like we can use public registers and hold polling booths. And outside of this everything mentioned has loop holes.

Qualifying as others have mentioned creates all kinds of dramas. If everyone lived close together and had a perfect drive while qualifying then yes we would be seeing the Tuffest trucks and drivers that Aus has to offer but i just cant see this happening.

I understand Pagies point on it(voting) being fairer to the competitors that want to get in at any cost. But i dont think its fair to the public that think they are voting for their heros.

Keep in mind TTC are advertising this as the Public has chosen these competitors which is really stretching the truth here.

Joined: 22 Jan 2003 Location: brisbane

making all votes public would be way of making it fair, if people are buying votes (as is the case) you may as well encourage that by turning it into an online auction.

People are good at policing themselves when they know what they are doing is open to everyone to see. im sure those thinking & willing to dump large sums of money in obtaining a placing would reconsider.

Almost like a public shaming

Joined: 21 May 2003 Location: Melbourne, AUS

Given the choice between using the rules and buying some votes to get in, or ignoring them and taking the high ground on the basis of some kind of messed up 'morality'...

...I guess it comes down to whether you really want to compete or not. Everyone had the same opportunities under the same rules. The voting system isn't perfect, but I would be disappointed if every competitor didn't know the rules backwards and try to squeeze every advantage they can out of them.

Looking forward to another wicked weekend. See y'all there!

S.

Joined: 29 May 2006 Location: Sydney

v840 wrote:

Cant believe Dobbin and Keck only made the reserves, and the redbull 40 has not entered. Seems he prefers the "zook"?

RedBull was not entered as my lower back has not been too good at all
That was also the reason I did not navi at Woodpecker and just watched from the sideline

Aaron

Joined: 19 Nov 2006 Location: Wollongong

Why not give a voting slip in with every ticket pre-sold rather than in the magazines? That way it's the people going to watch that are the ones choosing who they want to see. People will only be able to vote once also, unless they want to pay for extra tickets. Obviously there will be issues with sponsors complaining about magazine sales being effected so add the price of a mag to the ticket and send out the current issue with the ticket, buy 2 tickets together get a copy of both magazines (buy more than 2 and get the rest of the tickets at the discount rate). At least it will encourage more people to buy their tickets earlier and give the sponsors the exposure they are after (with people like me who go to TT but don't buy mags anymore to have a flick through and see what they are producing these days).

Just throwing out more ideas of other ways it could be done, as a few have shown concern about this topic, not necessarily saying this is the way it should be done.

Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Location: Kings Park, NSW

I dont really want to buy into any arguments regarding what is right or wrong, but I will say I know the guy who organised the charity thing, and I can assure you he his heart is in the right place.
He may have come across poorly to some folks, but he is only interested in raising as much money as he can for this worthy cause. He is passionate about it.
So if his determination, dedication and hard work come across as arrogance or anything else, you can be SURE that it is only because he wants to do the best he possibly can for the sick kids. It is ALL he talks about.
In the recent past, Mark has purchased a Heart Ventilator machine that means babies dont have to be sliced open, at a cost of $26,000 of his own money. He has also just paid $5,000 for two Humidifiers. (I only just learnt this today) These are the bits you dont hear about, because he doesnt do it for the glory or publicity. The guy is legitimatley interested in doing what he can to help. He thought it would be a great idea to have the 4WD community involved as well.
It is absolutely NOT a scam, every cent will go to charity. I think to call it a scam implies that he is up to no good, or is doing something dodge. This is not the case.
There were plenty of folks who got in without buying votes, so as Sam K said, those who didnt only have themselves to blame if they were passionate about competing and missed out.
Everyone had the same opportunity, it was on the TTC website, so no secret about what was going on.
Anyway, I hope no one takes this as a personal dig, it is just my thoughts and a little insight on the whole saga. At the end of the day, the kids are the winners and thats the best possible outcome there could be! armsup

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:30 am

Anyways 2 weeks to go!

Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Location: Kings Park, NSW

the gun wrote:

but the way which the votes were being sold, "buy some or u wont get a start".

Glenn

Who exactly said that?